How many horses since Affirmed SHOULD have won the Triple Crown? - Page 2 - Trackchampion Handicapping Contests For Horse Bettors

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

i believe he treated the sa derby as if it was the derby

He was just much better than those horses. No reason to give them a fighting chance, just take the lead. You sub him in this year's Derby for BB he wins by a block, even at less than 100%.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 05:03 PM

From the 20 hole

N-O

W-A-Y

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slew

He was just much better than those horses. No reason to give them a fighting chance, just take the lead. You sub him in this year's Derby for BB he wins by a block, even at less than 100%.

so you think pg is better than bb??

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

so you think pg is better than bb??

I'd like to see the rest of the Triple Crown,

But gut feeling is yes. It's close either way.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 05:12 PM

do not agree

with the possible exception at 12f

at 8f and 9f its not even close

in fact bb would have won that sa derby by 10 lengths

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

do not agree

with the possible exception at 12f

at 8f and 9f its not even close

in fact bb would have won that sa derby by 10 lengths

Point Given's Preakness and Belmont were two freakish performances. Might not remember but they made a big deal about PG coming out of the outside hole in Baltimore, where no horse had won either. As good as BB has been I haven't seen him do anything to top PG's Belmont vs. a good field. That's why I would still like to see the rest of the TC before making judgement. He might top it.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 05:31 PM

Slew if you watch the preakness point given was 9th at the start of the backstretch

if you watch the kentucky derby he was 6th on a hot pace on the clubhouse turn

he is clearly in the wrong position in the ky derby

in the derby i thought pg actually held in there pretty good considering he was so close to the bizarre pace

both he and congaree are very close to each other

congaree was a miler type who could stretch out his speed further

he should be closer up to the pace

pg was bigger and less lanky than congaree and clearly needed to be further back

in the belmont on the stretchout it makes sense that pg was closer to the pace

but not in the derby with that pace

YouTube - Monarchos - 2001 Kentucky Derby

YouTube - 2001 Preakness Stakes - Point Given

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

Slew if you watch the preakness point given was 9th at the start of the backstretch

if you watch the kentucky derby he was 6th on a hot pace on the clubhouse turn

he is clearly in the wrong position in the ky derby

in the derby i thought pg actually held in there pretty good considering he was so close to the bizarre pace

both he and congaree are very close to each other

congaree was a miler type who could stretch out his speed further

he should be closer up to the pace

pg was bigger and less lanky than congaree and clearly needed to be further back

in the belmont on the stretchout it makes sense that pg was closer to the pace

but not in the derby with that pace

YouTube - Monarchos - 2001 Kentucky Derby

YouTube - 2001 Preakness Stakes - Point Given

PG's most dominating efforts he was on top of the leaders as they were going into the final turn: Preakness, Belmont, Travers. His worst efforts (races he should have won by open lengths) he was closing in the stretch: BC Juvenile, Haskell. You can argue that Stevens could have waited a beat or two longer before making that move in the Derby, but I would take that spot in a 20 horse field anyday over having to exert the energy he did in the Preakness to get to the same place.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 06:10 PM

if i am congaree he would have to be right where he was-you say yes i will accept this although its not the place to be in this race

but point did not HAVE to be there

to me its clear that big brown is a far more versatile advanced and intelligent horse than point given

you can see it in that first race up at saratoga-he is cruising along at a fast pace and jeremy continues to pull him back-he goes 23 and change and then 24 and change twice and then an astouding 28 and change-total absurd freak in first race-as unusual as that christmas day tsunami

congaree ran with a bold recklessness but big brown can do cruising what congaree did pretty much full blast-its almost kind of funny

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slew

He was just much better than those horses. No reason to give them a fighting chance, just take the lead. You sub him in this year's Derby for BB he wins by a block, even at less than 100%.

actually if you sub congaree for bb and put him in a decent post he wins this derby

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

if i am congaree he would have to be right where he was-you say yes i will accept this although its not the place to be in this race

but point did not HAVE to be there

to me its clear that big brown is a far more versatile advanced and intelligent horse than point given

you can see it in that first race up at saratoga-he is cruising along at a fast pace and jeremy continues to pull him back-he goes 23 and change and then 24 and change twice and then an astouding 28 and change-total absurd freak in first race-as unusual as that christmas day tsunami

congaree ran with a bold recklessness but big brown can do cruising what congaree did pretty much full blast-its almost kind of funny

Loved Congaree.

As far as PG I just don't buy the "he was too close to the pace" stuff and never did. If he's my horse and they put him in the back and gets beaten trying to outkick closers and avoid traffic I am livid because I KNOW he's the best horse. If he's in a clear spot a few lengths off, makes his move, and it's not his time, then I'm OK with that. Dutrow mentality over Borel mentality. Just give the horse a shot for his talent to win. Not trying to get lucky.

The difference between BB and PG is that Big Brown has more brilliance. He has a grinding gear but he has lots of speed too. He's a freak, I agree. I'm not sure he is the better overall horse. I think he could beat PG at 8 and 9. 10 is close. Unless he does something spectacular in the Belmont I have a hard time believing he could top PG going 12.

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 06:26 PM

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, as classic as Secretariat's run in Preakness was......I thought the ride was ludicrous.

You have at 1/9 shot who would have to get extremely unlucky to lose, and you put him in the only place that could have happened.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slew

I just don't buy the "he was too close to the pace" stuff and never did. If he's my horse and they put him in the back and gets beaten trying to outkick closers and avoid traffic I am livid because I KNOW he's the best horse. If he's in a clear spot, makes his move, and it's not his time, then I'm OK with that. Dutrow mentality over Borel mentality. Just give the horse a shot for his talent to win. Not trying to get lucky.

The difference between BB and PG is that Big Brown has more brilliance. He has a grinding gear but he has lots of speed too. He's a freak, I agree. I'm not sure he is the better overall horse. I think he could beat PG at 8 and 9. 10 might be close. Unless he does something spectacular in the Belmont I have a hard time believing he could top PG going 12.

overall i want the stalking position-i want the dutrow position most of the time but not in that race-each race is different

i have him over affirmed slightly atleast which i must admit sounds hilarious-only q is 12f

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

overall i want the stalking position-i want the dutrow position most of the time but not in that race-each race is different

i have him over affirmed slightly atleast which i must admit sounds hilarious-only q is 12f

Over Affirmed?????? Oh my.

I can't take my horse out of his ideal spot because 1 out of 100 races might be a Twilight Zone episode. You handicap your way right out of contention.....the Denis of Cork syndrome.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 06:36 PM

i said it before the ky derby providing mountainman with some good laughter

you see what you see and sometimes it makes even yourself laugh

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 07:05 PM

yeah i think paul moran is a joke

calling the people who called bb the best 3 year old since secretariat borderline amateurish

whatever-i think i know a fair amount about class

make a prediction before the derby!!!!!!!!!!!!

funny i cant find his prediction

and i cant find his prediction on exactly how good he thought he is

keep writing paul

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 07:08 PM

Paul Moran at the races: Eight Belles deserves better

Boomman · 05-12-2008, 08:14 PM

I won't go as far as to say Funny Cide should have won the triple crown, but I have often wondered if things would have been different had he not been put through that insane 57:0 flat 5F work a couple of days before the Belmont. I also can't help but thinking that Barclay Tagg would have gone ballistic over that work if it hadn't been his girl friend in the irons.........just food for thought...........

Boomer

***Slew*** · 05-12-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomman

I won't go as far as to say Funny Cide should have won the triple crown, but I have often wondered if things would have been different had he not been put through that insane 57:0 flat 5F work a couple of days before the Belmont. I also can't help but thinking that Barclay Tagg would have gone ballistic over that work if it hadn't been his girl friend in the irons.........just food for thought...........

Boomer

I don't think FC could have gotten the 12f AND beaten a fresher Empire Maker in 10 tries. But I'm the wrong guy to ask because I think aside from those two weeks in May, Funny Cide wasn't that great of a racehorse.

cre8flow · 05-12-2008, 08:17 PM

yeah things might have been different

he might have gotten 2nd

jrlydn · 05-15-2008, 06:36 PM

I don't know if any SHOULD have won the TC if they did not win all 3 races but the horse missing from this thread is Point Given's daddy = Thunder Gulch. He won the 2 tough ones and missed by about a 1/2 length to Timber Country in Preakness. He also won a ton of prelims leading up to Derby - he is kind of forgotten man in this discussion.

RE: Point Given -- I've said it a hundred times, no way does he or anyone else beat Monarchos in the KD that year regardless of where he was placed in race. IMO PG is a better horse than BBrown. Big Brown will win TC if he stays healthy but that is in large part -no, make that HUGE part - due to one of weakest 3yo crops ever. Put BB in either of last 2 Derbys and he doesn;t hit the board. He might have beaten Smarty a few years back who also benefitted from weak competition. If they didn't gang up on him in Belmont that year he probably wins that race but I just don't feel he was TripCrn worthy, same for Real Quiet.

05-12-2008, 06:26 PM	#42 (permalink)
*Slew* Status: Administrator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 14,094	BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, as classic as Secretariat's run in Preakness was......I thought the ride was ludicrous. You have at 1/9 shot who would have to get extremely unlucky to lose, and you put him in the only place that could have happened. __________________ "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." - Thomas Jefferson, February 22, 1787

05-12-2008, 08:14 PM	#48 (permalink)
Boomman Status: Allowance Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 391	Funny Cide I won't go as far as to say Funny Cide should have won the triple crown, but I have often wondered if things would have been different had he not been put through that insane 57:0 flat 5F work a couple of days before the Belmont. I also can't help but thinking that Barclay Tagg would have gone ballistic over that work if it hadn't been his girl friend in the irons.........just food for thought........... Boomer __________________ www.DiamondEagleHandicapping.com/FullDayWebinar www.boomerhandicapsraces.com www.HorseRaceHandicappingCollege.com

05-12-2008, 05:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	From the 20 hole N-O W-A-Y

05-12-2008, 05:12 PM	#35 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	do not agree with the possible exception at 12f at 8f and 9f its not even close in fact bb would have won that sa derby by 10 lengths

05-12-2008, 05:31 PM	#37 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	Slew if you watch the preakness point given was 9th at the start of the backstretch if you watch the kentucky derby he was 6th on a hot pace on the clubhouse turn he is clearly in the wrong position in the ky derby in the derby i thought pg actually held in there pretty good considering he was so close to the bizarre pace both he and congaree are very close to each other congaree was a miler type who could stretch out his speed further he should be closer up to the pace pg was bigger and less lanky than congaree and clearly needed to be further back in the belmont on the stretchout it makes sense that pg was closer to the pace but not in the derby with that pace YouTube - Monarchos - 2001 Kentucky Derby YouTube - 2001 Preakness Stakes - Point Given

05-12-2008, 06:10 PM	#39 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	if i am congaree he would have to be right where he was-you say yes i will accept this although its not the place to be in this race but point did not HAVE to be there to me its clear that big brown is a far more versatile advanced and intelligent horse than point given you can see it in that first race up at saratoga-he is cruising along at a fast pace and jeremy continues to pull him back-he goes 23 and change and then 24 and change twice and then an astouding 28 and change-total absurd freak in first race-as unusual as that christmas day tsunami congaree ran with a bold recklessness but big brown can do cruising what congaree did pretty much full blast-its almost kind of funny

05-12-2008, 06:36 PM	#45 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	i said it before the ky derby providing mountainman with some good laughter you see what you see and sometimes it makes even yourself laugh

05-12-2008, 07:05 PM	#46 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	yeah i think paul moran is a joke calling the people who called bb the best 3 year old since secretariat borderline amateurish whatever-i think i know a fair amount about class make a prediction before the derby!!!!!!!!!!!! funny i cant find his prediction and i cant find his prediction on exactly how good he thought he is keep writing paul

05-12-2008, 07:08 PM	#47 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	Paul Moran at the races: Eight Belles deserves better

05-12-2008, 08:17 PM	#50 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Super Horse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,777	yeah things might have been different he might have gotten 2nd

05-15-2008, 06:36 PM	#51 (permalink)
jrlydn Status: Grade I Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,132	I don't know if any SHOULD have won the TC if they did not win all 3 races but the horse missing from this thread is Point Given's daddy = Thunder Gulch. He won the 2 tough ones and missed by about a 1/2 length to Timber Country in Preakness. He also won a ton of prelims leading up to Derby - he is kind of forgotten man in this discussion. RE: Point Given -- I've said it a hundred times, no way does he or anyone else beat Monarchos in the KD that year regardless of where he was placed in race. IMO PG is a better horse than BBrown. Big Brown will win TC if he stays healthy but that is in large part -no, make that HUGE part - due to one of weakest 3yo crops ever. Put BB in either of last 2 Derbys and he doesn;t hit the board. He might have beaten Smarty a few years back who also benefitted from weak competition. If they didn't gang up on him in Belmont that year he probably wins that race but I just don't feel he was TripCrn worthy, same for Real Quiet.