How many horses since Affirmed SHOULD have won the Triple Crown?

[jrlydn]

Originally Posted by Slew

BB obviously much more talented than Street Sense. I think the race would only have been a race had BB come out of the 20 hole and Street Sense got luckbox inside trip. Which says a lot about Big Brown.

No way slew - NOBODY beats SSense on CD track last year! Why do all the haters say Street Sense got a "lucky" trip in Derby. True he ran it up inside but his speed was overwhelming and while he was making hsi move there was no other horse in that field that could match his power. Let me put it another way -- SS ran an IDENTICAL race to his BC score 6 mos earlier! Take Hard Spun out of the equation and it is a carbon copy of that race with CircQuay and the Pletcher horses miles behind again. Give Borel his due credit also, he saw the correct path and placed him properly. The other thng that will always be said about that Derby is that Curlin got a terrible trip - LMAO! Like any other Derby horse he did not have clear sailing breaking out of gate. He did not have to get on the brakes just becaouse speed horses drifted in front him early on. He ran that race EXACTLY the way he ran the Preakness - where the other horses were in proximity to him early on was circumstantial and irrelevant. He had 10f to right the ship and ran just fine considering it was his 4th start. He nor any other was goingto beat SS in KD.

[Hook]

Originally Posted by jrlydn

No way slew - NOBODY beats SSense on CD track last year! Why do all the haters say Street Sense got a "lucky" trip in Derby.

Except for Curlin, who on an average day is 6 lengths better than SS would ever be!

[Slew]

Originally Posted by jrlydn

No way slew - NOBODY beats SSense on CD track last year! Why do all the haters say Street Sense got a "lucky" trip in Derby. True he ran it up inside but his speed was overwhelming and while he was making hsi move there was no other horse in that field that could match his power. Let me put it another way -- SS ran an IDENTICAL race to his BC score 6 mos earlier! Take Hard Spun out of the equation and it is a carbon copy of that race with CircQuay and the Pletcher horses miles behind again. Give Borel his due credit also, he saw the correct path and placed him properly. The other thng that will always be said about that Derby is that Curlin got a terrible trip - LMAO! Like any other Derby horse he did not have clear sailing breaking out of gate. He did not have to get on the brakes just becaouse speed horses drifted in front him early on. He ran that race EXACTLY the way he ran the Preakness - where the other horses were in proximity to him early on was circumstantial and irrelevant. He had 10f to right the ship and ran just fine considering it was his 4th start. He nor any other was goingto beat SS in KD.

Not a hater, just realistic. That trip is highly unlikely vs. 19 other horses. Street Sense did not just have to run well, he had to have a lot of things fall exactly right. He later showed that the slightest bit of adversity would defeat him.

[jrlydn]

Disagree strongly. He could have checked hard a couple times and still caught Hard Spun, his only real competition in THAT race. WHy doesn't FuPeg get that "lucky" tag ? he was far more fortunate in his Derby -- he had horses jumping out of his way and he was out in middle of track for most part. Borel was lucky, Desormaux rode a highly skilled perfect ride?? Not from what I saw. Borel timed that perfectly and SS had the motor to pull it off. What adversity are we talking about Slew? Like when Grasshopper hooked him in Travers? Who won that btw...
Curlin didn't contest hm so much as he nosed him at the wire. That has alot to do with fact that horse and rider thought they won Prknss once passed Crln and HS -- CB should slapped him one more time- would have held on for win.

[Slew]

Originally Posted by jrlydn

Disagree strongly. He could have checked hard a couple times and still caught Hard Spun, his only real competition in THAT race. WHy doesn't FuPeg get that "lucky" tag ? he was far more fortunate in his Derby -- he had horses jumping out of his way and he was out in middle of track for most part. Borel was lucky, Desormaux rode a highly skilled perfect ride?? Not from what I saw. Borel timed that perfectly and SS had the motor to pull it off. What adversity are we talking about Slew? Like when Grasshopper hooked him in Travers? Who won that btw...
Curlin didn't contest hm so much as he nosed him at the wire. That has alot to do with fact that horse and rider thought they won Prknss once passed Crln and HS -- CB should slapped him one more time- would have held on for win.

Street Sense gets checked or bumped once on his way thru he loses his momentum and way more than the second between he and Hard Spun. I never said Street Sense wasn't a good horse. I just thought he was as lucky as he was good there. Points to Borel for pulling it off. Street Sense sweeps around he finishes with Curlin. One of the reasons I have always defended Hard Spun as a 10f horse, he ran a winning Derby there.

[doctrot]

Originally Posted by Slew

Street Sense gets checked or bumped once on his way thru he loses his momentum and way more than the second between he and Hard Spun. I never said Street Sense wasn't a good horse. I just thought he was as lucky as he was good there. Points to Borel for pulling it off. Street Sense sweeps around he finishes with Curlin. One of the reasons I have always defended Hard Spun as a 10f horse, he ran a winning Derby there.

imo hard spun ran good enough in the classic to win it ......at least in other years ..........street sense may have been better than them all in the derby ......but for my money ....even though curlin was the best 3 yr old last year ....no doubt in my mind overall hard spun was easily the second best...........

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Ralph the Cat

not a single mention of Silver Charm?... ...

If Silver Charm had seen that horse coming at him, no way it goes by him. Canny jock took the other horse wide of the Charmer so he couldn't see it. IThat was his Achilles heel, of course, not being willing to draw off when he had beaten his field, leaving him vulnerable a late move.

[Masterquick]

Real Quiet is probably the worst beat I've ever seen. How close can you possibly get to a TC without winning it. Yes Slew, he most likely gets taken down if the nose bob goes the other way.

[bsd987]

I missed the discussion, but I agree with Slew on the top 2. I'd put Sunday Silence and Easy Goer as co-#3 because both were tremendously talented horses who were developed any ready but had to deal with each other.

Since I see some discussion on Street Sense, I shall reaffirm my opinion. I'm still standing by my opinion last year that Street Sense should have been disqualified. He came over a little too soon and stopped Hard Spun's momentum. Hard Spun clearly changed his stride at the time of the crossover and in the final 70 yards began to close on Street Sense. Had he not had to switch his lead, he might have come back and won. Disgusting that they didn't look at it (and no, I did not have Hard Spun on any of my tickets.)

[alysheba88]

Originally Posted by Slew

I was going to put Silver Charm on my list, but Touch Gold just flat out ran by him in the Belmont. To his credit, 1997 was easily the best 3yo class of the last 15 years

An incredible class.

As far as Thunder Gulch- very underrated horse. Won the Travers as well. Taking three of the top 4 three year old races not too shabby.

Will throw out another name. Would not put him in the same class as most of the others but Tabasco Cat was another who got better as the TC progressed.

He ran a pretty decent 5th in the Derby. The 94 Derby field was very very talented. Then went on winning Preakness and Belmont. Nosed in BC Classic and then Lukas breaks him down on the turf. Still cant believe they ran him so shortly after that exhausting Classic and three year old campaign

In the end BB will go down as just another horse. Sorry for those who love him. Was not as fast as many, if not most of the other two leg TC horses. Sunday Silence would have run him off his feet.

[alydar2]

Originally Posted by alysheba88

...In the end BB will go down as just another horse. Sorry for those who love him. Was not as fast as many, if not most of the other two leg TC horses. Sunday Silence would have run him off his feet.

I agree he'll be forgotten, but I'm not so sure about your "not as fast as many" statement.

Here's a quote from Thorograph, "Big Brown (2-5) ran very big to win the Florida Derby, and even bigger in Louisville, that negative 4-3/4 being the best Derby figure Thor-Graph has ever given out, by quite a bit."

[irishnip]

Originally Posted by alydar2

I agree he'll be forgotten, but I'm not so sure about your "not as fast as many" statement.

Here's a quote from Thorograph, "Big Brown (2-5) ran very big to win the Florida Derby, and even bigger in Louisville, that negative 4-3/4 being the best Derby figure Thor-Graph has ever given out, by quite a bit."

i highly doubt he will be forgotten...i have a sneaky suspicion that some kind of sweeping reform is on its way concerning drugs and horse racing...and bb will be the catalyst for the change...trainers like dutrow and the likes i have put them on the clock...cuz its ticking...

[cre8flow]

its been slow building for some time-the owners and trainers that rely on them have been fighting it

funny how southern california has been resistant to making steroids illegal but mandated poly tracks

i wont forget that ky derby and florida derby

i wont forget the belmont either

[alysheba88]

Just to be clear, I did not say he will be forgotten. Said he will go down as just another horse. Meaning not one of the greats.

I do think many positives (no pun intended) can come from this. Discussion about drugs has never been more prominent.

Dutrow is going to be more closely examined in the future.

He pissed off a lot of people the way he handled himself.

[irishnip]

Originally Posted by alysheba88

Dutrow is going to be more closely examined in the future.

He pissed off a lot of people the way he handled himself.

thursday edition of the drf lead story about curlin and curlin carrying weight has his trainer (ass-man) talking of the 128 lb. impost the racing secretary has saddled curlin with...quote.."big brown's belmont is a good indication that nothing is a foregone conclusion in this game"....quite a unique choice of words....

[cre8flow]

wonder if the press will ask asmussen if curlin is on steroids

or even was he on steroids in the belmont

like what are the odds that the press would ask pletcher if rags was on steroids

[scratch1]

Originally Posted by Afleet

cant remember the trip Risen Star had in the Derby, but many believed he was by far the best

I'll drink to that.

Afleet Alex was so hard-used in the Derby. The "blimp" shot pretty much proved
that.

So did his Preakness. Would have loved to have seen him race again at 4.