How many horses since Affirmed SHOULD have won the Triple Crown?

[Slew]

This isn't based on who was the best horse.

#1 Spectacular Bid - obviously
#2 Smarty Jones - worst big money ride ever and collusion by jealous jocks. Ran the fastest internal mile in Belmont history and was still around at the wire.
#3 Real Quiet - Kent D move too early? Would he have been DQ'd had he won?
#4 Afleet Alex - Jeremy Rose still blames himself for the Derby. And I partly blame him too.
#5 Point Given - Even though he is #2 "best horse of last 30 years to be denied the TC" behind Spectacular Bid, don't think he would have caught Monarchos on that drag strip in 10 tries.

[jimmy6]

SHORTLY after Affirmed,

Alydar

[Afleet]

cant remember the trip Risen Star had in the Derby, but many believed he was by far the best

[Hook]

Originally Posted by Slew

This isn't based on who was the best horse.

#1 Spectacular Bid - obviously
#2 Smarty Jones - worst big money ride ever and collusion by jealous jocks. Ran the fastest internal mile in Belmont history and was still around at the wire.
#3 Real Quiet - Kent D move too early? Would he have been DQ'd had he won?
#4 Afleet Alex - Jeremy Rose still blames himself for the Derby. And I partly blame him too.
#5 Point Given - Even though he is #2 "best horse of last 30 years to be denied the TC" behind Spectacular Bid, don't think he would have caught Monarchos on that drag strip in 10 tries.

Agree with Bid. Smarty maybe. No as to the rest. Would add Alysheba. No Lasix in New York at the time. Would give consideration to Sunday Silence and Easy Goer. Both would have had big chances without the other.

[Slew]

Originally Posted by jimmy6

SHORTLY after Affirmed,

Alydar

No kidding. Put Alydar in a typical 3yo year crop without Affirmed and he runs away with the TC.

[Son of Greedo]

Not a single one. If you aren't good enough to overcome the adversity of a given race, you're not a super horse, which by definition all TC winners become.

Agree that there are lesser and greater 3yo classes but to try and start comparing generations of 3yo's, is, I've always thought, a mugs game at best.

What I find interesting is the not so subtle dislike in the media, especially the horse media, for Big Brown, because his connections and trainer are not sympathetic figures like an 80 year old women or a salt of the earth grandfatherly type trainer.

It's not the horse's fault his owner is a noted drug cheat and it's not the horse's fault his owners want to turn him into a hedge fund. He just runs.

If BB was trained by Stutts and owned by Penny Chenery, Privman et all would be gushing over and over about what a "wonderful" story it all is and how the humans "deserve" such a great horse. As if that has any bearing whatsoever on Big Brown.

Dutrow ain't Lucien Lauren and IHEA aren't Penny Chenery. So what! Big Brown has a ton of talent, and now accomplishment which we can enjoy, regardless of his connections.

[Slew]

Originally Posted by Son of Greedo

Not a single one. If you aren't good enough to overcome the adversity of a given race, you're not a super horse, which by definition all TC winners become.

Agree that there are lesser and greater 3yo classes but to try and start comparing generations of 3yo's, is, I've always thought, a mugs game at best.

What I find interesting is the not so subtle dislike in the media, especially the horse media, for Big Brown, because his connections and trainer are not sympathetic figures like an 80 year old women or a salt of the earth grandfatherly type trainer.

It's not the horse's fault his owner is a noted drug cheat and it's not the horse's fault his owners want to turn him into a hedge fund. He just runs.

If BB was trained by Stutts and owned by Penny Chenery, Privman et all would be gushing over and over about what a "wonderful" story it all is and how the humans "deserve" such a great horse. As if that has any bearing whatsoever on Big Brown.

Dutrow ain't Lucien Lauren and IHEA aren't Penny Chenery. So what! Big Brown has a ton of talent, and now accomplishment which we can enjoy, regardless of his connections.

I believe that with even below average rides both Smarty and especially the Bid would have easily won. Total butcher jobs. To me that's different than saying the horse just didn't have what it took.

[Belch One]

Definitely the first two; I believe the stewards stated the next day that Real Quiet would have been taken down (and rightfully so, IMO) had he won.

[cre8flow]

spectacular bid absolutely


trainer and jock blew the point given thing

maybe point given

that is it

smarty from a class and distance thing no way

those are the 2 best horses

spectacular bid a

then point given

going to hit the beach

[cre8flow]

cant believe anybody would say afleet alex

he had a positive pace flow into a superslow race

a superslow race and he still cant win the thing

NO WAY

[cobra]

Originally Posted by Afleet

cant remember the trip Risen Star had in the Derby, but many believed he was by far the best

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!! He got destroyed in the derby and he won the other two legs of the triple crown easily. The bid and smarty jones should have been triple crown winners.

[Slew]

Originally Posted by cre8flow

cant believe anybody would say afleet alex

he had a positive pace flow into a superslow race

a superslow race and he still cant win the thing

NO WAY

You put his Arkansas/Preakness/Belmont together it becomes even more obvious that the Derby that year was one giant, stupid cluster****. I don't even consider the race to be real in anyway. Horses that would never win another important race in their life backed into it. While Rose took AA to the dead part of the track.

[cre8flow]

i meant anybody who didnt bring up the subject

AA had to be in the discussion

to me i sort of agree with son of gredo

but spectacular bid yes

2)native dancer

3)little current

4)shadow gay

5)smarty jones

[cre8flow]

chateaugay was beaten by candy spots loose on the lead in the preakness

little current was beaten by jock and 23 horse field

smarty was chumped by the jocks

spectacular bid chumped by pathetic jock jock-stepped on a pin

[Ralph the Cat]

not a single mention of Silver Charm?... Afleet Alex was the best horse to not win the derby... to grab the other 2 legs of the triple crown shows you how great he was... winning at 1 3/16ths and then a 1mile 1/2... he got a terrible trip/ride in the derby... someone said they cant believe A-Alex was mentioned, you got to be kidding me... then someone else said he got destroyed in the derby... lmao... I must have watched a different derby... A-Alex did not get destroyed in the derby... he also had to overcome a lung infection and fever during his preps to the derby... if he didnt get set back a month, he would of most likely destroyed Giacamo and company even with the bad trip he got... Smarty Jones year was against the saddest group of 3yo of all time... Smarty was a cut above an average good 3 yo... won the derby by how many?... ya I know... but he only ran it in 2:04 or ^.... shows you how sad the field was... The belmont was like running a 1 1/2 in an ALW race... the only good horse in the race beat him... he never could of won the Belmont against any year field... and before you forget, Im from PA, and supported his run for the TC... but had little faith going into the belmont... hes Among the best 1 -1 1/8th 3 yos... but no triple crown horse... and he proved that... show me a horse that can win the belmont and preakness... and Ill show you a horse that can win the derby...

[cre8flow]

Originally Posted by Ralph the Cat

not a single mention of Silver Charm?... Afleet Alex was the best horse to not win the derby... to grab the other 2 legs of the triple crown shows you how great he was... winning at 1 3/16ths and then a 1mile 1/2... he got a terrible trip/ride in the derby... someone said they cant believe A-Alex was mentioned, you got to be kidding me... then someone else said he got destroyed in the derby... lmao... I must have watched a different derby... A-Alex did not get destroyed in the derby... he also had to overcome a lung infection and fever during his preps to the derby... if he didnt get set back a month, he would of most likely destroyed Giacamo and company even with the bad trip he got... Smarty Jones year was against the saddest group of 3yo of all time... Smarty was a cut above an average good 3 yo... won the derby by how many?... ya I know... but he only ran it in 2:04 or ^.... shows you how sad the field was... The belmont was like running a 1 1/2 in an ALW race... the only good horse in the race beat him... he never could of won the Belmont against any year field... and before you forget, Im from PA, and supported his run for the TC... but had little faith going into the belmont... hes Among the best 1 -1 1/8th 3 yos... but no triple crown horse... and he proved that... show me a horse that can win the belmont and preakness... and Ill show you a horse that can win the derby...

i think form beat alex-not the race and only possibly the jockey-he should have overcome the trouble-slow slow the slowest of the slow races



smarty should have won-they intentionally ganged up on him and he still almost won

not saying smarty was better than afleet-i will take afleet over smarty

[cre8flow]

will blame trainer for point given

was given what 2 races that year

maybe sore during early part of year so had lack of conditioning

definitely ridden poorly as anybody could see that there would be a superfast pace-put on the lead in prior race

only a moron could miss that in the drf

[Ralph the Cat]

cmon it wasnt that slow... the final time was still around 2:02 and change... nothing like smartys 2:04 etc... dont remember the early fractions... but if you are saying those times were slow... since when does slow early fractions help a horse that comes from off the pace?...

[cre8flow]

there was a monsoon 30 minutes prior to the race

track got like 7 inches of rain in a half an hour

smarty ran in mud

[Ralph the Cat]

Originally Posted by cre8flow

there was a monsoon 30 minutes prior to the race

track got like 7 inches of rain in a half an hour

smarty ran in mud

I know, but he got a clean trip... and it was the second slowest derby Ive seen in my life time... If the horse came from way out of it and runs a 2:04^ in the slop I wouldnt mention the time being a factor... I also believe when a favorite wins the derby, it shows you just how easy the field was...

[Slew]

Originally Posted by cre8flow

will blame trainer for point given

was given what 2 races that year

maybe sore during early part of year so had lack of conditioning

definitely ridden poorly as anybody could see that there would be a superfast pace-put on the lead in prior race

only a moron could miss that in the drf

With a monster like Point Given the absolute worst thing you can do is turn him into a one run closer. Like saying if a couple more frontrunners were in the race, they should have taken Big Brown to the back. Like they did with Easy Goer in the Derby and Classic, giving him almost no shot. PG himself lost the BC Juvenile in the same manner as much the best horse. In the Derby Point Given was 7-8 lengths in the clear off the leaders in 6th. I believe he just flattened out. And he needed to be in 100% peak form, because he was going to have to run as fast as Secretariat to beat Monarchos that day.

As far as the training decisions, it's always hard for me to blame some Derby superstition (like more than 2 preps), especially after seeing what Big Brown just did.