CHARITABLE MAN.... - Page 2

cobra · 06-05-2009, 08:48 AM

HORSE RACING COLUMN: Derby taught McLaughlin a lesson
By Art Wilson, Staff Writer
Posted: 06/04/2009 10:40:59 PM PDT

Don't be surprised some year if trainer Kiaran McLaughlin runs four or five horses in the Kentucky Derby. From now on, if they're sound and they're eligible, he's sending them to Churchill Downs for the Run for the Roses.

McLaughlin played it safe this year with Charitable Man, electing to skip the Derby after the colt Lemon Drop Kid underwent shin surgery in late 2008 and couldn't make the early Triple Crown prep races this spring.

When he finally did debut this year April 11, he finished a mediocre seventh in the Blue Grass Stakes over Keeneland's Polytrack surface.

"We were thinking that if he ran well, he could run back in three weeks (in the Derby) off the synthetic tracks easier than the dirt tracks," McLaughlin said.

"But he didn't run great ... he was fit enough to run the mile and an eighth, he wasn't tired at all, he just didn't seem to handle the Polytrack that well.

"So (owner William Warren) was kind enough and patient enough to wait for the Peter Pan, which he ran a huge race. And now on to the Belmont and all is well. His shin is fully recovered and healed up. And he's doing great, no issues at all."

But there is second-guessing going on in McLaughlin's mind, especially after 50-1 long shot Mine That Bird came charging home to win the Derby. Now he's not sure if he made the right decision by keeping Charitable Man in the barn and skipping Derby day.

"I'm never going to pass the Kentucky Derby

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again," he said.
"It's going to take a lot more to make me not run. I want to run from now on, because Charitable Man, not only is he a beautiful horse, he's a talented horse and he's three for three on the dirt.

"It will definitely alter my thinking in the future. I will want to run horses if they have a chance. So in the future, if I end up entering four horses (in the Derby), everyone will know that this year helped make that decision possible."

Many have argued that if not for Rachel Alexandra, Mine That Bird could be trying to become the first Triple Crown winner in 31 years when he faces nine opponents in Saturday's 141st Belmont Stakes. He's the 2-1 morning-line favorite, and Charitable Man is second choice at 3-1.

But what if Charitable Man, a colt that has the running style more conducive to the 11/2- mile Belmont, had raced in the Derby and won? Would his tactical speed have been more of a hindrance to Rachel Alexandra's front-running tactics in the Preakness?

It's all a guessing game, but one thing is certain - Charitable Man is a talented colt who will be tough to beat Saturday. He's unbeaten in two races at Belmont Park, including an impressive 33/4-length score in the Peter Pan Stakes on May 9 when he stalked a blistering pace from second and drew off to win under jockey Alan Garcia.

This is a colt that won by 111/2 lengths when he debuted at Saratoga last August,then returned five weeks later to take the Grade II Belmont Futurity by one length, a race in which Friesan Fire - many experts' choice to win the Kentucky Derby - finished third.

Charitable Man was injured after the Futurity, leading to the surgery and the rehabilitation process. He showed his disdain for synthetics during his return, but he ran more like himself in the Peter Pan, and McLaughlin is hoping that the decision to bypass possible Derby fame will pay off down the road.

"I felt like running back in three weeks off the Blue Grass race was not the best thing to do for the horse going forward for the rest of the year," McLaughlin said.

"But if (Warren) was patient enough and waited until a race like the Peter Pan, then maybe we would get rewarded later when we had a fresh horse for the Belmont or the Travers."

McLaughlin has the type of track record where an owner should listen when he offers a suggestion. He trained Saint Liam, the 2005 Horse of the Year, and he saddled Jazil to win the 2006 Belmont, coming from far off the pace to find the winner's circle.

Charitable Man figures to try to win this year's race in a more conventional manner, meaning Garcia can sit back like in the Peter Pan if Miner's Escape sets a swift pace, or he can attempt to go gate to wire and make it back-to-back victories in the Belmont if no one else wants the lead. Garcia rode Da 'Tara last year when the 38-1 long shot spoiled Big Brown's run for a Triple Crown.

Charitable Man is the pick here, with Dunkirk finishing second and Mine That Bird third.

art.wilson@sgvn.com

KNOW HE IS SECOND GUESSING ABOUT NOT RUNNING IN THE DERBY AFTER I WAS LOOKING AT PICKING UP AROUND FIVE THOUSAND ON A FUTURE WAGER.

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cobra · 06-06-2009, 06:46 PM

The man could not close out the pick four for me. I bet 1-2-4 / 2-3-8 / 3-5-12 / 6 five times and it was paying $ 3, 100 for a dollar. I was to stubborn to use two more horse's in the end 4-7 instead of hitting the repeat button. It paid $ 8,000 for a dollar and I got nothing but alot of losers.

irishnip · 06-07-2009, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobra

The man could not close out the pick four for me. I bet 1-2-4 / 2-3-8 / 3-5-12 / 6 five times and it was paying $ 3, 100 for a dollar. I was to stubborn to use two more horse's in the end 4-7 instead of hitting the repeat button. It paid $ 8,000 for a dollar and I got nothing but alot of losers.

with an hour to post and holding firm at 5-1 to you knew something was amiss wagering wise...with a half hour to post and charitable still holding sway at 5-1 you knew he was as dead as 'kelsey's ballz'...

Ocala Mike · 06-07-2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishnip

with an hour to post and holding firm at 5-1 to you knew something was amiss wagering wise...with a half hour to post and charitable still holding sway at 5-1 you knew he was as dead as 'kelsey's ballz'...

Absolutely spot on post! Yet he still should have been third, even though not bet like a winner. I thought the tactics used with this horse doomed him from the gate.

Ocala Mike

Masterquick · 06-07-2009, 07:07 AM

It was axing a bit much of the horse to be out so long and then try 1.5 miles with limited experience and conditioning.

cre8flow · 06-07-2009, 08:09 AM

the odds had nothing to do with why chaitable man lost

irishnip · 06-07-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

the odds had nothing to do with why chaitable man lost

the odds had everything to do with you "knowing" that charitable man wouldn't win...for KM being so high on the horse and the horse being colder then rodney dangerfield trying to get some respect one could deduce that the odds of him winning were little to none....other then your video for replays and paying attention to how a track seems to be playing that tote board you scan at constantly is the single most important "tool" you'll ever have in your arsenal....JMO...

Ocala Mike · 06-07-2009, 02:12 PM

Great post, and right on again. The toteboard speaks to different people in different ways, but it does speak! "Dead on the board" is a tough obstacle to overcome.

Ocala Mike

cre8flow · 06-07-2009, 05:45 PM

you can anti handicap the horse on the fundamentals

alysheba88 · 06-07-2009, 06:15 PM

The horse was clearly interfered with my Dunkirk late. Probably cost him second

cre8flow · 06-07-2009, 06:34 PM

i was against for the win

horse actually ran decent-and i consider him a threat down the road

but not in that situation

Ocala Mike · 06-07-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre8flow

you can anti handicap the horse on the fundamentals

Like on Wall Street, sometimes the "technicals" trump the "fundamentals"; the street has the tape, and we have the toteboard.

Before the Belmont, every handicapper was coming in his pants about how this was a paceless race, and they were handing it to CM on a platter. I expected him to be co-favorite with MTB, or a very close 2nd choice. When he opened as high as he did, I smelled a rat.

Ocala Mike

irishnip · 06-08-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

Like on Wall Street, sometimes the "technicals" trump the "fundamentals"; the street has the tape, and we have the toteboard.

Before the Belmont, every handicapper was coming in his pants about how this was a paceless race, and they were handing it to CM on a platter. I expected him to be co-favorite with MTB, or a very close 2nd choice. When he opened as high as he did, I smelled a rat.

Ocala Mike

amen brother...hallejuh....cre8 just can't see the light.....

alysheba88 · 06-08-2009, 04:42 PM

Technical trading is mumbo jumbo and the idea that "smart money" was the reason an animal lost is too

Why didnt Mine that Bird win?

gallobluechip · 06-09-2009, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba88

Technical trading is mumbo jumbo and the idea that "smart money" was the reason an animal lost is too

Looks like yet ANOTHER person who doesn't believe in "The Board". I always laugh when someone tells me....."The Board doesn't mean anything".........yeah right...........

My response is always this................

THAT'S where all the MONEY is, of course it means something................

Nip and the others who know how to read a board are correct.........

DEAD ON THE BOARD was obvious for charitable man, AUTOMATIC PITCH.......

Gallo

turfnsport · 06-09-2009, 07:31 AM

Here is a screen shot of RDSS of the Belmont off the paceandcap website...(When I picked pacelines I actually had Summer Bird second)...Note how low Charitable Man is on the BL Odds (Bottom line)..I was shocked how low the Peter Pan rated...It got me off CM.

alysheba88 · 06-13-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gallobluechip

Looks like yet ANOTHER person who doesn't believe in "The Board". I always laugh when someone tells me....."The Board doesn't mean anything".........yeah right...........

My response is always this................

THAT'S where all the MONEY is, of course it means something................

Nip and the others who know how to read a board are correct.........

DEAD ON THE BOARD was obvious for charitable man, AUTOMATIC PITCH.......

Gallo

I cashed on several horses "dead" on the board today. Its utter nonsense.

The belief that some infallible "they" dictates results

The "money" was on Mine that Bird- did I miss something?

Did you bet Monmouth today? What did board have to say about winner of race 2? What about race 3? Race 6?

Could go on and on

irishnip · 06-13-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba88

I cashed on several horses "dead" on the board today. Its utter nonsense.

The belief that some infallible "they" dictates results

The "money" was on Mine that Bird- did I miss something?

Did you bet Monmouth today? What did board have to say about winner of race 2? What about race 3? Race 6?

Could go on and on

we're talking about one horse aly..CM...those horses at monmouth are of a completely different senario...
the money on mine that bird was supposed to be there....
with CM the money was supposed to be there but wasn't..see?

hence DOB....
so to answer the question did i miss something....absolutely....
and if you don't think the toteboard means anything...don't use it, don't look at it...(not even peek)....for a week and come back to us and tell us how u did...

alysheba88 · 06-14-2009, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishnip

we're talking about one horse aly..CM...those horses at monmouth are of a completely different senario...
the money on mine that bird was supposed to be there....
with CM the money was supposed to be there but wasn't..see?

hence DOB....
so to answer the question did i miss something....absolutely....
and if you don't think the toteboard means anything...don't use it, don't look at it...(not even peek)....for a week and come back to us and tell us how u did...

I look at it because I want to know what I am getting.

I never every bet a horse because he is being bet down. Never ever

As far as Charismatic Man it was a bad ML. I liked the horse and still do. But 3-1 was ridiculous.

Dont think Summer Bird was some massive overlay either. Had no problem passing at that price

irishnip · 06-14-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba88

I look at it because I want to know what I am getting.

I never every bet a horse because he is being bet down. Never ever

As far as Charismatic Man it was a bad ML. I liked the horse and still do. But 3-1 was ridiculous.

Dont think Summer Bird was some massive overlay either. Had no problem passing at that price

i threw out MTB, DUNKIRK, CM, CHOC CANDY (after i saw how i thought the track was playing ) and still missed the race....how do you do that???

cre8flow · 06-14-2009, 07:50 AM

well i look at the board

but here it wasnt the lack of action or a supposed pace number that caused the horse to not win

animal was asked to do a lot

he performed very well

06-07-2009, 02:12 PM	#38 (permalink)
Ocala Mike Status: Grade II Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 1,215	CHARITABLE MAN.... Great post, and right on again. The toteboard speaks to different people in different ways, but it does speak! "Dead on the board" is a tough obstacle to overcome. Ocala Mike

06-05-2009, 08:48 AM	#31 (permalink)
cobra Status: Grade III Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 962	HORSE RACING COLUMN: Derby taught McLaughlin a lesson By Art Wilson, Staff Writer Posted: 06/04/2009 10:40:59 PM PDT Don't be surprised some year if trainer Kiaran McLaughlin runs four or five horses in the Kentucky Derby. From now on, if they're sound and they're eligible, he's sending them to Churchill Downs for the Run for the Roses. McLaughlin played it safe this year with Charitable Man, electing to skip the Derby after the colt Lemon Drop Kid underwent shin surgery in late 2008 and couldn't make the early Triple Crown prep races this spring. When he finally did debut this year April 11, he finished a mediocre seventh in the Blue Grass Stakes over Keeneland's Polytrack surface. "We were thinking that if he ran well, he could run back in three weeks (in the Derby) off the synthetic tracks easier than the dirt tracks," McLaughlin said. "But he didn't run great ... he was fit enough to run the mile and an eighth, he wasn't tired at all, he just didn't seem to handle the Polytrack that well. "So (owner William Warren) was kind enough and patient enough to wait for the Peter Pan, which he ran a huge race. And now on to the Belmont and all is well. His shin is fully recovered and healed up. And he's doing great, no issues at all." But there is second-guessing going on in McLaughlin's mind, especially after 50-1 long shot Mine That Bird came charging home to win the Derby. Now he's not sure if he made the right decision by keeping Charitable Man in the barn and skipping Derby day. "I'm never going to pass the Kentucky Derby -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Advertisement -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- again," he said. "It's going to take a lot more to make me not run. I want to run from now on, because Charitable Man, not only is he a beautiful horse, he's a talented horse and he's three for three on the dirt. "It will definitely alter my thinking in the future. I will want to run horses if they have a chance. So in the future, if I end up entering four horses (in the Derby), everyone will know that this year helped make that decision possible." Many have argued that if not for Rachel Alexandra, Mine That Bird could be trying to become the first Triple Crown winner in 31 years when he faces nine opponents in Saturday's 141st Belmont Stakes. He's the 2-1 morning-line favorite, and Charitable Man is second choice at 3-1. But what if Charitable Man, a colt that has the running style more conducive to the 11/2- mile Belmont, had raced in the Derby and won? Would his tactical speed have been more of a hindrance to Rachel Alexandra's front-running tactics in the Preakness? It's all a guessing game, but one thing is certain - Charitable Man is a talented colt who will be tough to beat Saturday. He's unbeaten in two races at Belmont Park, including an impressive 33/4-length score in the Peter Pan Stakes on May 9 when he stalked a blistering pace from second and drew off to win under jockey Alan Garcia. This is a colt that won by 111/2 lengths when he debuted at Saratoga last August,then returned five weeks later to take the Grade II Belmont Futurity by one length, a race in which Friesan Fire - many experts' choice to win the Kentucky Derby - finished third. Charitable Man was injured after the Futurity, leading to the surgery and the rehabilitation process. He showed his disdain for synthetics during his return, but he ran more like himself in the Peter Pan, and McLaughlin is hoping that the decision to bypass possible Derby fame will pay off down the road. "I felt like running back in three weeks off the Blue Grass race was not the best thing to do for the horse going forward for the rest of the year," McLaughlin said. "But if (Warren) was patient enough and waited until a race like the Peter Pan, then maybe we would get rewarded later when we had a fresh horse for the Belmont or the Travers." McLaughlin has the type of track record where an owner should listen when he offers a suggestion. He trained Saint Liam, the 2005 Horse of the Year, and he saddled Jazil to win the 2006 Belmont, coming from far off the pace to find the winner's circle. Charitable Man figures to try to win this year's race in a more conventional manner, meaning Garcia can sit back like in the Peter Pan if Miner's Escape sets a swift pace, or he can attempt to go gate to wire and make it back-to-back victories in the Belmont if no one else wants the lead. Garcia rode Da 'Tara last year when the 38-1 long shot spoiled Big Brown's run for a Triple Crown. Charitable Man is the pick here, with Dunkirk finishing second and Mine That Bird third. art.wilson@sgvn.com KNOW HE IS SECOND GUESSING ABOUT NOT RUNNING IN THE DERBY AFTER I WAS LOOKING AT PICKING UP AROUND FIVE THOUSAND ON A FUTURE WAGER. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

06-06-2009, 06:46 PM	#32 (permalink)
cobra Status: Grade III Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 962	The man could not close out the pick four for me. I bet 1-2-4 / 2-3-8 / 3-5-12 / 6 five times and it was paying $ 3, 100 for a dollar. I was to stubborn to use two more horse's in the end 4-7 instead of hitting the repeat button. It paid $ 8,000 for a dollar and I got nothing but alot of losers.

06-07-2009, 07:07 AM	#35 (permalink)
Masterquick Status: Hall of Famer Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The Delta Posts: 24,028	It was axing a bit much of the horse to be out so long and then try 1.5 miles with limited experience and conditioning.

06-07-2009, 08:09 AM	#36 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Hall of Famer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,806	the odds had nothing to do with why chaitable man lost

06-07-2009, 05:45 PM	#39 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Hall of Famer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,806	you can anti handicap the horse on the fundamentals

06-07-2009, 06:15 PM	#40 (permalink)
alysheba88 Status: Super Horse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 9,987	The horse was clearly interfered with my Dunkirk late. Probably cost him second

06-07-2009, 06:34 PM	#41 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Hall of Famer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,806	i was against for the win horse actually ran decent-and i consider him a threat down the road but not in that situation

06-08-2009, 04:42 PM	#44 (permalink)
alysheba88 Status: Super Horse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 9,987	Technical trading is mumbo jumbo and the idea that "smart money" was the reason an animal lost is too Why didnt Mine that Bird win?

06-09-2009, 07:31 AM	#46 (permalink)
turfnsport Status: Grade I Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 4,854	Here is a screen shot of RDSS of the Belmont off the paceandcap website...(When I picked pacelines I actually had Summer Bird second)...Note how low Charitable Man is on the BL Odds (Bottom line)..I was shocked how low the Peter Pan rated...It got me off CM.

06-14-2009, 07:50 AM	#51 (permalink)
cre8flow Status: Hall of Famer Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,806	well i look at the board but here it wasnt the lack of action or a supposed pace number that caused the horse to not win animal was asked to do a lot he performed very well